If you could rearrange S/T and HTLWC...

[jparker800]

...how would you reorder the track listing, and what songs would you cut?

I'm trying to go back and breath new life into these albums but they just seem broken as is.

[glastonbury]

I can understand wanting to make some adjustments to the self-titled disc, but a recent listen to HTLWAC tells me that it is simply a great, textured, enduring album. It's a different animal than the first three Stavesacre discs (which we might classify as "Stavesacre, Part 1), but it's really, really hot.

On the self-titled, I would love to hear that album recorded and mixed as well as HTLWAC or any of the first three discs. Then i could probably appreciate it more.

[ryanro]

I'm seconding Glastonbury. HTLWAC is a fantastic record, possibly my favorite at this point. I will admit that I would have no problem dropping "Sean" but it is otherwise a record in need of no tampering. And I'd just like to hear a remixed version of s/t, there are some great songs on there beneath the poor production.

[ejendres]

The self titled has some of my favorite songs on it, i really wished it was produced better.

[bogenbroom]

I wouldn't touch HTLWAC as it was the band's return to their "sound" which was lost on S/T. Even reading how they're none too pleased with S/T I was listening to it a few weeks ago after a year or two hiatus and there are some solid songs on there for sure. Remix that puppy definitely, maybe redo some of the vocals (I don't know if they're recorded that way or just mixed) and cull it down to 5 songs and I think it would make a far stronger EP than full length album. It may be the lesser of their efforts but it's strong enough (again if it were pared down to 5 or so songs) to be part of their catalog.

To the OP, how does HTLWAC seem broken to you?

[jparker800]

I want to love HTLWAC, I really do, but as it stands, I only love a few songs on it, and that's about it. Musically, I think it is VERY solid. There are some real musical gems on here, but I think some of those gems were ruined lyrically. The opening track "...I do, I breathe, that's enough for me..." ...what? You breathe? It's as shallow a chorus as it is an answer to the question of faith. The song falls flat. Another lyrical stinker, "You made it look so easy". Gosh this song could've been legendary... with that opening bass line through the very end, this song was meant to be something. And then in the chorus we get "Hello! Hello! You made it look so easy" ...what? Yeah man, rock and roll!!! Hello!!! Grrrr! Hello!!! I don't get it...

Just a few examples of songs I can't listen to because of poor lyrical execution/writing. My conviction is only stronger after hearing Against the Silence. Every single song on there is an instant classic, and it's because the band decided to return to their true form, and stop trying to write accessible Billboard friendly music. ATS is proof positive.

I watched the documentary dvd, and as I understand, the band felt that, at the time, HTLWAC was their best album to date, and the one that most represented who they were and what they stood for as a band... the pinnacle of their sound and achievement. I wish I felt the same way, I tried to, but to me it's just an incomplete album, like S/T.

By the way, I love Stavesacre. Sorry for being so harsh... I'm just voicing my opinion though.

1. A Reason To Believe
(cut)
2. It's Beautiful
(rocks at first, then becomes a sappy pop-fest, i guess keep it)
3. We Say
(by the book rock song, emotionless, cut)
4. Fear and Love
(vanilla from start to finish, weird goofy synth sounds, cut)
5. The Trouble With Being Born
(eh, it's ok, says "wayward son" a million times)
6. [untitled]
(needless, cut)
7. Future History of the Broken Hearted
(rocks my socks off, 2nd best song on the album)
8. Grace
(good song, drags on towards the end, could shave a few minutes off the song)
9. You Made It Look So Easy
(again, amazing song, poor lyrics)
10. Lost Days
(musically great, emotionally as flat as 'We Say'...cut)
11. ...We’ll Sort This Out Right Now
(musically great, but better i know that you know that i know that you know that we knows that she knows that... cut)
12. Sean
(great slow song, much better than 'Yes', full of passion)
13. [untitled]
(stronger than previous interlude)
14. Kill My Darlings
(the star of the album)

So my version of HTLWAC has like 6-7 songs on it. Sorry if I trashed one of your favorite songs, I'd be interested to hear your perspective on why it's good.

[r1]

fwiw, I never really looked at it that way but i think you make some good points.

definitely agree that the music on YMILSE (SMILEY?) is fantastic but the lyrics don't quite measure up. then again even Stavesacre needs a happy song once in a while, no?

[bogenbroom]

Aug 4, 2009 22:33:54 GMT -5 jparker800 said:

1. A Reason To Believe
(cut)
2. It's Beautiful
(rocks at first, then becomes a sappy pop-fest, i guess keep it)
3. We Say
(by the book rock song, emotionless, cut)
4. Fear and Love
(vanilla from start to finish, weird goofy synth sounds, cut)
5. The Trouble With Being Born
(eh, it's ok, says "wayward son" a million times)
6. [untitled]
(needless, cut)
7. Future History of the Broken Hearted
(rocks my socks off, 2nd best song on the album)
8. Grace
(good song, drags on towards the end, could shave a few minutes off the song)
9. You Made It Look So Easy
(again, amazing song, poor lyrics)
10. Lost Days
(musically great, emotionally as flat as 'We Say'...cut)
11. ...We’ll Sort This Out Right Now
(musically great, but better i know that you know that i know that you know that we knows that she knows that... cut)
12. Sean
(great slow song, much better than 'Yes', full of passion)
13. [untitled]
(stronger than previous interlude)
14. Kill My Darlings
(the star of the album)

I know I said I wouldn't touch HTLWAC but you bring up some valid points.

1. A Reason To Believe
I disagree. I think it's a great bookend to the album and while as not as strong as Kill My Darlings (correct, that IS the star of the album and it's as good as any of the other stars off of their other albums) I think it holds merit musically and lyrically (at least in bits and pieces). In my opinion its a song that sounds like it belongs on Speakeasy. Melodic pop. No reason to cut it as it's a bridge (like this whole album seems to be) from their departure of their original sound to something more palatable by the Billboard masses and back.

2. It's Beautiful
I agree. It could be a completely different (and better) song with a harder chorus. The bridge fits rather well so it's just the chorus that throws the song off.

3. We Say
I can't disagree.

4. Fear And Love
I agree. It sounds like something left over from S/T.

5. The Trouble With Being Born
As good as anything on Speakeasy. Not quite filler, decent enough to be considered a lull in the album without dragging it down.

6. Interlude I
I completely disagree. It's a nice experimental piece that has the potential to blossom into something akin to Stars And Clouds or Burning Clean. Just because it's different doesn't make it worthless (IMO, you of course are entitled to yours )

7. Future History...
Yep, you got that right.

8. Grace
I again agree...a shorter would be nice. Good lyrics though. Great sentiment. Again, Speakeasy material.

9. You Made It Look So Easy
Hmmm, I really don't see why you have a problem with these lyrics. I think they fit the mood and tempo of the music quite well. Maybe I can see you getting tired of the "Hello" but other than that it's pretty solid.

10. Lost Days
I agree (except for the cut portion). The lyrics are pretty weak or rather, not up to Mark's standard but I find some merit in them and the music more than makes up for the lyrics.

11. ...We'll Sort This Out Right Now
Hahaha, when you put it in that context I see your point but I disagree. I don't find you knowing that I know that you know annoying at all. Musically it's one of the better tracks and there's now way I'd cull this one.

12. Lean
Who's "Sean"?
I'm surprised you enjoy this one as much as you do. True it's better than "Yes" but I don't know how much that speaks towards it being a good song. I prefer "Yes"'s melody and music but Lean does have better lyrics. Lean may be my least favorite on this album.

13. Interlude II
Hmm, you say it's stronger than the previous interlude but that was a cutter for you. Does that mean you actually like it or, meh? I agree it's better than the 1st interlude and for me by a far margin. I could listen to that riff for several minutes and not get bored. I wish they'd expand that and turn it into an epic, again similar to the ones from Friction and Absolutes.

14. Kill My Darlings
Can't do anything but agree with you. Easily the best song on the album. Melodic and hard and simply kick ass. Stavesacre as they should be.

I'm with you on Jeff's comments about HTLWAC from the DVD. For me it's not their best, but a return to their best and a glimpse of their greatness particularly evidenced in Kill My Darlings.

So, I wouldn't call it broken by any stretch. Wounded perhaps but that's to be expected.

[drenchedecent]

HTLWAC curse is fine as is. A good album from start to finish.

I would rather the s/t album just cease to exist. Any one else think it is ironic that not even the band mentioned it on the DVD?

[daegor]

Aug 6, 2009 11:09:36 GMT -5 drenchedecent said:

HTLWAC curse is fine as is. A good album from start to finish.

I would rather the s/t album just cease to exist. Any one else think it is ironic that not even the band mentioned it on the DVD?

they did mention it, they said they weren't happy with it

personally, some of my favourite songs are the s/t

I have some very nice audio equipment, and honestly, it doesn't sound as bad as everyone makes it out to, the quality was a step back for them, but I've heard much much worse

[glastonbury]

I believe that part of the problem with the s/t is one of perception. Three of the songs on the s/t were re-recorded versions of songs from the split/EP with Denison Marrs. So when it came out, it didn't feel so much like a new album as it did an incremental step.

I popped it in now just to re-listen, and the digital clipping on Witch Trial immediately reminded me of the cringe-inducing production throughout the disc. It's just not there.

Meanwhile, while Neil Samoy was/is a great showman and exciting to watch, his playing and tones seem labored to me. The whole thing sounds labored. You can tell that this is a band that's tired, frustrated and not having a lot of fun. It just comes through.

In the same way, BtF and everything the band has done since reflects the camaraderie the band has enjoyed since giving up on trying to "make it" -- things move faster, lighter, better.

The live versions of some of these songs on the Dallas DVD are far better than what's here.

I really would love to hear a well-recorded version of World to Wait, though. A beautiful song.

[ryanro]

Live from Dallas actually helped me enjoy many of the s/t songs - they sound so good on it.

[stevoman]

Aug 9, 2009 12:06:01 GMT -5 glastonbury said:

I believe that part of the problem with the s/t is one of perception. Three of the songs on the s/t were re-recorded versions of songs from the split/EP with Denison Marrs. So when it came out, it didn't feel so much like a new album as it did an incremental step.

I popped it in now just to re-listen, and the digital clipping on Witch Trial immediately reminded me of the cringe-inducing production throughout the disc. It's just not there.

Meanwhile, while Neil Samoy was/is a great showman and exciting to watch, his playing and tones seem labored to me. The whole thing sounds labored. You can tell that this is a band that's tired, frustrated and not having a lot of fun. It just comes through.

In the same way, BtF and everything the band has done since reflects the camaraderie the band has enjoyed since giving up ttrying to "make it" -- things move faster, lighter, better.
The live versions of some of these songs on the Dallas DVD are far better than what's here.

I really would love to hear a well-recorded version of World to Wait, though. A beautiful song.

I agree with this. I also remember that Stavesacre was toying with the idea of re-recording some songs from Speakeasy to put on the self-titled to reach their new and "wider" audience. Can you imagine that? I actually protested on the message board back then and remember Mark saying not to worry as this CD is made for their true fans. A re-recording of Blind Hope and World to Wait would make me happy too.

[extolthechrist]

The biggest reason that the self-titled album irritates me is that the band said that not all of the songs from the split would appear on an album, but they all were on the self-titled. Plus, the songs on the self-titled didn't sound as good as the ep versions. IThe band lost a little bit of trust with me by doing that. I did pick up HTLWAC (and love it), but I didn't buy BTF because I was gun shy from buying the split. I regret that now that those songs haven't appeared anywhere else and the ep is out of print.

[janeyi]

He looked towards the sky and cried painfully, Pallet rack"O youth, return!
Boltless shelvingO my father, place me once more at the entrance to life,
Rack shelvingand I'll choose the better way!" But both his father and .And his youth did return,
Saw blade sharpening machine the days of his youth had passed away
steel shelvingfor all this was only . He was still young though his faults were real;
storage rackhe had not yet entered the deep, dark cave,
racking and he was still,Fishing Tackle China free to walk on the road which leads to the peaceful ,Saw bladeand sunny land.janeyi

[virex21]

Aug 4, 2009 22:33:54 GMT -5 jparker800 said:

I want to love HTLWAC, I really do, but as it stands, I only love a few songs on it, and that's about it. Musically, I think it is VERY solid. There are some real musical gems on here, but I think some of those gems were ruined lyrically. The opening track "...I do, I breathe, that's enough for me..." ...what? You breathe? It's as shallow a chorus as it is an answer to the question of faith. The song falls flat. Another lyrical stinker, "You made it look so easy". Gosh this song could've been legendary... with that opening bass line through the very end, this song was meant to be something. And then in the chorus we get "Hello! Hello! You made it look so easy" ...what? Yeah man, rock and roll!!! Hello!!! Grrrr! Hello!!! I don't get it...

Just a few examples of songs I can't listen to because of poor lyrical execution/writing. My conviction is only stronger after hearing Against the Silence. Every single song on there is an instant classic, and it's because the band decided to return to their true form, and stop trying to write accessible Billboard friendly music. ATS is proof positive.

I watched the documentary dvd, and as I understand, the band felt that, at the time, HTLWAC was their best album to date, and the one that most represented who they were and what they stood for as a band... the pinnacle of their sound and achievement. I wish I felt the same way, I tried to, but to me it's just an incomplete album, like S/T.

By the way, I love Stavesacre. Sorry for being so harsh... I'm just voicing my opinion though.

1. A Reason To Believe
(cut)
2. It's Beautiful
(rocks at first, then becomes a sappy pop-fest, i guess keep it)
3. We Say
(by the book rock song, emotionless, cut)
4. Fear and Love
(vanilla from start to finish, weird goofy synth sounds, cut)
5. The Trouble With Being Born
(eh, it's ok, says "wayward son" a million times)
6. [untitled]
(needless, cut)
7. Future History of the Broken Hearted
(rocks my socks off, 2nd best song on the album)
8. Grace
(good song, drags on towards the end, could shave a few minutes off the song)
9. You Made It Look So Easy
(again, amazing song, poor lyrics)
10. Lost Days
(musically great, emotionally as flat as 'We Say'...cut)
11. ...We’ll Sort This Out Right Now
(musically great, but better i know that you know that i know that you know that we knows that she knows that... cut)
12. Sean
(great slow song, much better than 'Yes', full of passion)
13. [untitled]
(stronger than previous interlude)
14. Kill My Darlings
(the star of the album)

So my version of HTLWAC has like 6-7 songs on it. Sorry if I trashed one of your favorite songs, I'd be interested to hear your perspective on why it's good.

A quick note about the interludes...Track 6 is comprised of the intro notes from "A Reason To Believe" and Track 13 is the bridge from "Future History". Keep 'em both and marvel at the numerology in this track listing... 1+6=7, 6+7=13, 1+13=14...I asked Mark about this back when the record came out and he confirmed that it was done intentionally.

I couldn't disagree with you more about "We Say". That is possibly the best political song ever and it's completely unexpected. HTLWAC, to me is their best work. Their label screwed them over big time, plus this album may have been ahead of its time.